Z
You speak of freedom of religion. You say “this is their Tradition and they have a right to it.” And this is true.
You speak in generalized platitudes about religious tolerance, of freedom. You say nothing of the pain caused to the individual. My “beef” with Z. Budapest and Dianic Wicca is not one of generalized platitudes. It is personal.
I have arrived at an open Dianic ritual and was pulled aside and asked to leave. Because I arrived in combat boots and a biker jacket (I came on a motorcycle) and my energy was too masculine.
I have been at a women’s ritual where a Dianic Wiccan informed me that I was buying into the patriarchies’ objectification of women for wearing a pretty, strappy dress with full hair and make up done. She said I offended her and the Goddess by being tarted up.
I have been told disdainfully that I cannot be a woman of substance, as I am young, thin and pretty.
I have been told that I am selfish and unnatural for being a woman in her thirties who is not a mother, and who has no strong, desperate desire to become one. I have been told that I cannot be a whole woman until I bear children from my body.
Does Z have the right to exclude transwomen? Yes.
Do Dianic Wiccans have the right to call me an unnatural, too masculine, tart who lacks substance … because that is their Tradition? Maybe so.
Look into my eyes and see the pain there. Know that it is 1/10 of the pain the transwomen at Pantheacon felt when they sat in protest, staring at a sign that read: Genetic women only.
Does Z have a right to practice intolerance because it is her Tradition? Yes.
Do the organizers of Pantheacon have the right to allow her to lead a ritual that excludes certain kinds of women? Yes.
But I also have the right speak out against this these things. I have the right to condemn her, her Tradition and Pantheacon. And I will exercise that right, with tears in my eyes and sorrow in my heart.
Things Z has written or spoken on the subject:
“Transies who attack us only care about themselves.”
“Women are born not made by men on operating tables.“
“But if you claim to be one of us, you have to have sometimes in your life a womb, and overies and MOON bleed and not die. ”
“Genetic women only”
“Many many young men at collage age are latent homosexuals, which is dangerous to women.”
“The male gender is gender conscious, ‘us boys together’ against the other gender.”
“Why are we universally hated by the male gender? ”
These are not the words of a wise Elder. They are not the words of a loving priestess. They are not the words of a worthy leader. They are the words of a hateful, narrow minded bigot.
You say we should allow Z to have her Tradition, you say we should allow Pantheacon to exclude certain people from rituals based upon gender and sexual identity. You say we must do these things in the name of religious freedom, in the name of tolerance, in the name of diversity.
I say that religious tolerance and religious freedom does not mean that we must tolerate leaders who are openly bigoted.
“Now, we must all fear evil men. But there is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good men.” ~ Boondock Saints
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Yes. This.
Exactly. Beautifully said.
I don’t know what the right answer is, but I know it’s not hatred. Hatred is never the answer. ((hugs))
As a man, I find Z’s comments wrong-headed. As a feminist, I find Dianic Wiccan practices to be counterproductive. As partner to a genderqueer individual, I find the whole thing at Pantheacon offensive. As an empathetic human being, I have genuine sorrow for the slights against you. Putting up with bigoted individuals, however, is exactly what tolerance means. The second-most valuable book in kabbalism, the Zohar, says straight out that anyone who is not born a Jew is not even human, but nobody said anything about the sephirotic tree of life on the floor in front of the registration table. The Druze don’t allow converts or intermarriage. You can’t be a homosexual and a good Catholic, or become Mormon if you drink tea. We all cling to our beliefs, usually with little thought, and the only thing that allows us to say that we are not bigots ourselves, by definition, is showing tolerance towards those views we find personally abhorrent. This is an opportunity to display our own virtue, just as hateful comments towards one’s entirely valid personal choices are an opportunity to become stronger. As with the previous commenter, hatred or anger only play into her hand.
Speaking out against Z and her words and her actions is not hate. It is speaking out.
If Z (or her followers) attempt to vilify anyone who speaks out against her statements or opinions, then they are guilty of the same crimes that Z rails against herself. It’s manipulation and intimidation of the highest degree. No one is above being criticized, no matter who they are or what they’ve done (except for the Pagan Pope of course, that’s something else entirely).
This is not my thought, but it’s been suggested that Z’s time has past and, in a wild effort to stay relevant, she is tilting at any windmill she can find.
“we should allow Pantheacon to exclude certain people from rituals based upon gender and sexual identity”
No one who thinks this should be put in charge of anything more substantial than candyfloss, and even then only under supervision.
“we should allow Pantheacon to exclude certain people from rituals based upon gender and sexual identity [...] we must do these things in the name of religious freedom, in the name of tolerance, in the name of diversity”
I am constantly amazed by the ability of humans to give headspace to two totally conflicting ideas.
Budapest planned her ritual in the full and certain knowledge that it would be controversial and, from what I hear, it could be argued that she planned it that way on purpose.
I consider it a mark of shame that our community still gives equal voice to people who spout such hateful views, and I hope that the organizers of Pantheacon will not permit her to host a ritual next year.
You are brave for speaking out so. May the Lord and Lady of the Greenwood protect and strengthen you and yours.
-Ran
Personally, I think this is a situation of great complexity. Where do the rights of one begin, and another’s end. Do we have the right to forces others to change because we find them hateful and bigoted, even though we really can’t prove which side is morally correct? I too find Z a distasteful person. Personally, I don’t like how the Dianics operate.
But then I think of my own path, and the numbers that pop up and call us racists (even though we aren’t) and think that our path must be silenced. Those who don’t think it right to be “tribalists” and see the honor and glory that comes from ancestry, regardless of race. Those who would force their beliefs on people like me, because mine are “Distasteful.”
It is good to speak out against things we find horrible. But we must always be careful when we speak, or act, against another Pagan path. Because we have enough people trying to wipe us all out. We don’t need our fellow Pagans, who should accept the multiplicity of paths, trying to shut down those they don’t like.
These are my humble thoughts.
PS if anyone could tell me why “latent homosexuality” (I disagree with this, but that’s an aside) in college males is a threat to women, I would really like to know. How is it that men liking men is a danger to women?
I dislike Z as well, but we must be careful as to how we speak out and act towards other paths we find “distasteful.”
My own Heathen path often gets called “racist” simply because we are often “tribalists” who glorify heritage and ancestry. Many people would like to see that path shut down, because of many reasons from they don’t like the idea of tribalism, to the fact that they have issues with certain “groups” being tribalist. I look at the situation with the dianics, and as much as I don’t like what they do, I worry that letting them be vilified for their path will only give strength to those who believe in suppressing mine because they find it “distasteful.”
It is good to speak out against things we don’t like. But we must always be careful. Enough are the enemies we have. We don’t need to turn on each other and needlessly destroy things we find “Distasteful.” We are Pagans, we can always bring forth new and better paths without having to destroy. Us the pain to create, in this case. Dangerous is it to start acting against the “undesirable and the offensive.” Because it might always be our Path that gets pruned next.
My humble thoughts.
Ps, could anyone explain the danger of “latent homosexuality in college men” towards young women? I’m having trouble figuring that one out.
I was most alarmed by the event and issues surrounding it, since this con was supposed to be about diversity.
Personally, I believe that since Pantheacon is supposed to be an open to all community event, that they should not have allowed closed events at all. If people wanted to have parties in their rooms where they only invited their chosen friends, members of their circle, people with green eyes… whatever… but not for a conference where people pay for access to all of the discussions, classes, and rituals.. not cool.
Onto the greater issue– dis-inclusion within the greater community…
Honestly, i find it rather hypociritical for people in a persecuted subculture to turn around and persecute others (yes, i am speaking to things like the Dianics hating male pagans and to the greater LGBT community committing bi-erasure, and the way most Transpeoples are treated everywhere…) We talk incessantly about the evils of the inquisition, the burning times, the religious right’s treatment of modern pagans… but then we exclude each other for being the wrong gender, practicing too cereminially, being too young to be an elder, not calling the quarters “right”, worshiping a pantheon that is “sooo last week” etc…
with global climate change, deforestation, sociatal issues, many wars, etc, we don’t have time for bickering among ourselves… we need to work together to heal the earth.
Yes, it is a sad day when people talk about tolerance the most when cherry picking their own favorite intolerances.
Especially when the rather irrational and conflicting list of “dismissals” could pretty much dismiss EVERY one that the group says they want to entice.
I am sorry for your experience. I should be sorry for the lost to Z’s group. But that? I am not sorry…they don’t deserve you.
Funny, the last Dianic ritual I went to informed me that I would need to sit out because as an infertile woman “I do not qualify as wholly female”-quote. Looks like i’m not alone in my apparent female un-wholeness.
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I have been the High Priestess of a Coven for over 13 years. I received my Office from my HPS who had served for over 13 years…and she was a transwoman. If all acts of love and pleasure are the Goddess’s rituals then all acts of intolerance, bigotry and exclusion are blasphemies. I have a deep respect for Z’s experience and her passion and her dedication but I am ashamed as an elder, a HPS, a Goddess-worshiper and a woman by any and everyone who presumes to dictate who is and who is not ‘worthy’ to worship and celebrate the mother of us all. Blessed Be to all the brave hearts and souls who stand up for the rights of ALL PEOPLE to find their own path to the Divine and may the Lady of the Crossroads lead all who are obstacles to that to a place of lesson-learning and heart-changing. So Mote It Be.
Well, so since I don’t see myself having children ever, seems I’m not “wholly female”. And who actually decides what makes someone a “woman” anyway? If you identify as one, I think that’s far more important. Because if you see yourself as male or female, that’s what you are, regardless of what other people think. I’ve never understood the whole “you must have a period….and have had/plan on having children”-thing to be considered a woman.
I suppose that they do have the ‘right’ to exclude people because it’s their tradition, but it’s hateful and it upsets me. No one deserves to be on the receiving end of bigoted hatred and maliciousness. So while I guess theoretically they can do it, they shouldn’t be allowed to, not at an open event like Pantheacon, not in one of the open rooms.
There’s nothing wrong with being furious with the bigotry of the arguments Z uses. There’s nothing wrong with disliking her…even hating her for it. Telling someone who’s been personally hurt by this that “hating doesn’t do anything, just let it go” is offensive. They have every right to hate the person who insults them, degrades them, or declares (in this whole Dianic issue) they aren’t “Women” because they weren’t born that way. They also have the right to speak out, just as everyone else should speak out, against these bigoted arguments.
In any case – whether you hate her or not doesn’t matter. Speaking out against her isn’t hate. It’s what should be done.